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标题: Form or Function? [打印本页]

作者: IntoTheWind 时间: 2014-4-21 10:40
标题: Form or Function?
Form or Function?

型式与功能是辩证的逻辑关系, 任何强调其中之一, 而忽视另一个的思想都是严重错误的.

首先型式决定功能, 型式的大骨架是物理力学与人体生理结构共同决定的, 很少有差别. 不同的型式, 产生不同的功能. 错误的形式只能产生错误的功能.

这一点也决定了, 学习必然是从学习型式开始.

功能决定型式, 是说根据想要的不同功能, 来选择相应的型式, 而不是否认型式对功能的决定性作用.

其次正确的型式不是唯一的. 一些没那么重要的次要细节, 衍生出了各种风格的型式.

最后要防止盲目追求型式的倾向. 因为型式的致命重要性, 容易导致大家在苦命追求型式的同时, 却忘掉了型式的本来目的 - 功能.

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2014-4-21 10:47
真理就是大白话，说多了人瞌睡，大侠要不停地讲个笑话，不然看不下去

作者: firehwak2018 时间: 2014-4-21 10:48
不是form is determined by function 么？

作者: luvski 时间: 2014-4-21 10:52

KuoiGuaBoarder 发表于 2014-4-21 11:47
真理就是大白话，说多了人瞌睡，大侠要不停地讲个笑话，不然看不下去

入风大侠的这个帖子我倒是看懂了，也没打瞌睡。

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 11:26
I don't think all of the above understand what "form is determined by function" truly means
You guys just take one sentence out of its whole context and judge it.

Please take a lesson.

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2014-4-21 11:30

bullpower 发表于 2014-4-21 12:26
I don't think all of the above understand what "form is determined by function" truly means
You guys ...

牛哥眼真毒，我就是一知半解，牛哥啥时候开个讲坛呗

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:04
I don't know your context, as all I can see is your whole post:
-------------------------------------------------------
Form or Function?

型式与功能是辩证的逻辑关系, 任何强调其中之一, 而忽视另一个的思想都是严重错误的.

首先型式决定功能, 型式的大骨架是物理力学与人体生理结构共同决定的, 很少有差别. 不同的型式, 产生不同的功能. 错误的形式只能产生错误的功能.

这一点也决定了, 学习必然是从学习型式开始.

功能决定型式, 是说根据想要的不同功能, 来选择相应的型式, 而不是否认型式对功能的决定性作用.

其次正确的型式不是唯一的. 一些没那么重要的次要细节, 衍生出了各种风格的型式.

最后要防止盲目追求型式的倾向. 因为型式的致命重要性, 容易导致大家在苦命追求型式的同时, 却忘掉了型式的本来目的 - 功能.
-------------------------------------------
And this is wrong.

If you teach your students form, they won't understand and won't be convinced.
they will struggle when they try to follow your form against their original form.

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:05
And there is no "产生错误的功能",
I think you are talking about result instead of function.

CSIA defines function clearly in the book
All terrain, any conditions..free to choose line and speed ... with economy of effort.

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:07
one example is how you would teach a drill "facing downhill".
Can you explain how you would teach?

作者: firehwak2018 时间: 2014-4-21 12:08
又回到了两种教学理念的问题上~~~

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:16
It was not until I took the lvl1 training session that I became aware that I focused too much on the form "facing down hill".
I ended up with turning my head and shoulders to make sure I do face down hill. However I forgot to feel the
essence of this drill " turn with lower body".

And it's the root cause of some skiers on this forum do UN-neccessary counter-rotation that compromises balance while skiing.

a lot of time and mileage wasted.

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:19
your starting point is wrong:
------------------------------------------------------------
首先型式决定功能, 型式的大骨架是物理力学与人体生理结构共同决定的, 很少有差别. 不同的型式, 产生不同的功能. 错误的形式只能产生错误的功能.

这一点也决定了, 学习必然是从学习型式开始.

功能决定型式, 是说根据想要的不同功能, 来选择相应的型式, 而不是否认型式对功能的决定性作用.

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:22
IntoTheWind As a matter of fact, I will never teach anyone "facing downhill". 发表于 7 分钟前

it's a good drill, depending on how you teach others.
it's used in CSIA 1 and 2.
many racers do that as well.

作者: IntoTheWind 时间: 2014-4-21 12:26

bullpower 发表于 2014-4-21 13:22
IntoTheWind As a matter of fact, I will never teach anyone "facing downhill". 发表于 7 分钟前

i ...

Brother Bull, I'm done having fun.
Have a nice day too.

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:30

IntoTheWind You were taught a wrong form. Blame you coach, not the correct forms. 发表于 2 分钟前

It's NOT a wrong form. If you are a strong skier, you can do that in short radius turns/moguls.
If you are not a strong skier, you cannot do that in whatever radius turns, even in short radius.

regardless, the essence "turn with lower body", a result coming out of it is "facing downhill".
You should let your students feel more of "turning with lower body"

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 12:36
本帖最后由 bullpower 于 2014-4-21 12:41 编辑

firehwak2018 同意。“面向山下”不是必须，“下身带转”是必须。而前者是后者带来的视觉效果发表于 14 秒前

so when you teach, you tell your student both, but explain to them to feel more of "turning with lower body"
and tell them if you feel strongly "turning with lower body", you can do "facing down hill".
Tell them put more efforts on lower body to be able to face downhill instead of shoulders and neck.

My instructor told me a drill which is a variation of the above,
you can totally forget your upper body, you are allowed to even turn with your upper body
or at least the instructor does not care.
The key is:
Try to turn skis across the hill as much as possible and you must achieve a feeling that the front of boots almost
coming out of the binding.

I'm sure I'm learning "turning lower body" in this exercise.

作者: cat 时间: 2014-4-21 13:35
千秋万载，一桶糨糊！

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 14:05

cat 发表于 2014-4-21 13:35
千秋万载，一桶糨糊！

糨糊一桶!

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2014-4-21 14:07
要火，强帖留名

作者: snowrider 时间: 2014-4-21 14:21
本帖最后由 snowrider 于 2014-6-15 00:29 编辑

..........

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 15:18

IntoTheWind 你们的耻笑, 阻挡不了我和牛哥追求真理的脚步. 咋样发表于半小时前

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2014-4-21 15:43
笑点在哪里？求指点

作者: bullpower 时间: 2014-4-21 20:23
俺的看法的是这样的，望指正。
--------------------------------------------------------------
Form or Function?

型式与功能是辩证的逻辑关系, 任何强调其中之一, 而忽视另一个的思想都是严重错误的.

首先型式决定功能, 型式的大骨架是物理力学与人体生理结构共同决定的, 很少有差别. 不同的型式, 产生不同的功能. 错误的形式只能产生错误的功能.
》》》俺觉得反了，功能决定了形式，CSIA定义的功能，决定了FORM基本一样，理由如风侠所说。
而CSIA定义的功能，应该是所有×SIA的功能（或者说差不多）。

这一点也决定了, 学习必然是从学习型式开始.
》》》未必啊，咱网上就有跳过犁式的。当然WEDGE适合大多人开始练。个把骨骼惊奇的，异类一下也无妨。

功能决定型式, 是说根据想要的不同功能, 来选择相应的型式, 而不是否认型式对功能的决定性作用.
》》》参照第一条。参照功能定义。

其次正确的型式不是唯一的. 一些没那么重要的次要细节, 衍生出了各种风格的型式.
》》》这个有道理。因为人跟人不一样，就算生理结构。。。

最后要防止盲目追求型式的倾向. 因为型式的致命重要性, 容易导致大家在苦命追求型式的同时, 却忘掉了型式的本来目的 - 功能.
》》》这个正确。而且应该是放在首先那个位置上。

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2014-4-21 20:43

bullpower 发表于 2014-4-21 21:23
俺的看法的是这样的，望指正。
--------------------------------------------------------------
Form or ...

啊, 没了

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